Fear(less) log Nr 10 - Mandi Rafsendjani.
Mandi Rafsendjani. "Go deep."
Hi Everyone
Time for a little celebration, as this is already the 10th episode of the Fear(less) log! I am thrilled to have you as a reader, and I hope that you have found some value in this mission to dissect fear in trading. In honor of this special occasion, I have the privilege of sharing a remarkable individual’s insights. Mandi Rafsendjani, to many of you known as “Mandi”, tells us what fears she had to conquer with and how she managed to deal with them.
Similar to the episode with Steve Goldstein, this was an in-person conversation covering various topics. Mandi then also took it in her own (more than capable hands) to answer the questionnaire below. It’s a bit lengthier, but Mandi's insights are truly valuable.
Mandi Rafsendjani (Coach & Trader)
Mandi is based in Australia and has been trading since 2002. As she told me it had been quite a rollercoaster ride for her as well (same as for many of us I guess). Initially losing money, it took her 7 years to become consistently profitable. However, even so, she lost a big chunk of it during 2016 trying to short a relentlessly climbing market. She bounced back from that episode, taking in valuable lessons, and nowadays trades mainly short-term moves. She is also a trading coach focusing on trader’s mindset, one that goes well beyond the surface, one that explores people’s behavior patterns by digging into childhood, traumas, etc.
Here is the link to her Twitter profile, her Youtube channel and her website.
Fair to say that from my conversation with Mandi, I got so much more out than answering a few questions about fear; Mandi really really knows what she is talking about (I immediately took out some reading about some of these topics afterward). Anyway, here’s a summary of our conversation:
What specific fears did you experience while trading? How did they manifest? The most common fears include fear of losing money, fear of being wrong, fear of losing out on the dream, fear of not being respected, fear of keeping up with expectations, or just fear of losing.
“Of course, on the surface I thought it was all those common fears we hear about, FOMO, fear of losing money, fear of being wrong, fear of never being able to live up to my full potential, all those fears that you listed in the questions.
I didn’t understand it at the time, but what was underneath all these fears was actually a “Fear of Abandonment. My parents divorced when I was 7, and I felt like the abandoned child. Turned out that this fear of abandonment was the driver for me going on tilt and once I had dealt with it, impulsive behavior resolved itself automatically, and consequently the nature of my fears changed completely.
I can still be fearsome, but it is different now. In the past I feared myself, I knew I couldn’t trust myself not to do something stupid. Nowadays it’s more trepidation when I have to take some heat on a trade and I can’t read the price action well, so don’t know if something is about to happen for the markets to turn against my position… But it is ok, because I know I can trust myself that whatever happens I know how to deal with it. When I started trading, the emotional rollercoaster that came with the fear was so overwhelming because I felt helpless, at the mercy of my self-sabotaging behavior, that is not the case anymore.”
How did you initially deal with those fears? Did you try any specific techniques or methods?
“Oh I had tried anything under the sun. I read all the books, I studied all the trading methodologies. I kept thinking, ‘I could have a PHD in trading strategies, but I just don’t know how to stop the self-sabotage.’
The thing is, “Whatever we see and feel in the markets is a reflection of our inner self. When I started out, had low self-esteem, my BIG Five score for neuroticism was off the charts, just too emotional for trading. My psychological base structure was not suited for being a trader. So, I had to start this long journey of really going down the rabbit hole and dealing with those issues in the inside and then coming out of the transformation tunnel a changed person.”
Did you seek out mentoring or support to help you deal with your fears? If so, what kind of support did you receive?
“You need to remember; I started trading pre-internet. I had to pick up the phone to call my broker!! There was not as many resources available as today.
I wish I had had access to cool gadgets like your heart rate monitoring software, it would have cut my journey by half for sure and made it so much easier. It is one thing to ‘feel’ anxiety, another to actually ‘see’ the anxiety plotted from your heart in a graph.”
Were there any resources (books, courses, etc.) that helped you better understand and cope with your fears while trading? If so, which ones?
“Of course I read all the classics, Mark Douglas, Market Wizards, Harry Stanton, Alexander Elder, Van Tharp, I have read them all.. and still nothing changed.
Until I discovered the Landmark Forum in 2003. It helped me to better understand myself and how to work through those self-sabotaging behavior patterns.
That’s when I started to study human behavior patterns just like chart-patterns. I understood that if we are affected by fear of abandonment (as it was in my case) what comes with it is the learned behavior of co-dependency. In a nutshell, co-dependency is putting other peoples’ needs before your own out of fear of abandonment.
And I clearly saw that playing out everywhere in my life. For example, I used to always run late for meetings, even though I tried my hardest to be on time. I was coached on it from a Landmark coach, the first time I experienced one on one coaching, and with the help of my mom we uncovered that I had formed an unconscious belief that I had to run late in order to be accepted by my brother. I would have never figured this out on my own, it sounds so irrational to an adult, but to a child that is afraid of abandonment, this makes complete sense.
Co-dependency is learned behavior and it doesn’t make for healthy relationships nor trading success.
The way co-dependency plays out in my trading was that I didn’t get frustrated or angry but would rather feel bad and hide in shame. (flight response anyone? :))
The famous Sir John Templeton described it best: “Most people lose money in the attempt not to lose money.” (Note: This is something that the legend Mark Douglas has been talking about many times). The human behavior pattern you have in your life, in your relations, is exactly the same you will have with the market.” (Read that sentence again…I think it is really worth thinking about. How does that apply to you?)”
Have you ever paid attention to your body signals, such as heart rate, while trading? If so, how did you use this information to manage your fear?
“I have never really worked with my heart rate, always wanted to try it out though, because my former coach Steve Ward had ran a research project on bank traders using heart maths and it was an eye opener!
I did something similar with one of my traders, we plotted his heart rate over his equity curve, which was eye opening!
However, since I am highly kinaesthetic, I could train myself to listen to my body’s signals and use them now as my ‘emotional guidance system’. I can’t really describe it, but a particular feeling creeps up in my solar plexus long before my logical mind tells me that my mental and emotional capital is depleted and it urges me to take a break as I am now at the risk of doing something stupid and give all my profits back.
That high level of self-awareness allows me to be proactive in dealing with my fears and weaknesses. For example, a typical pattern would be when I made good profits shorting the market, and I don’t get out in time when the market turns, I know I find it difficult to exit these shorts (I do not like to give profits back). That’s why I rarely add to my positions, I rather exit and re-enter frequently as I know emotionally and mentally, this is how I can perform best.”
And I agree, unless we bring conscious awareness to what we do, we act mostly unconsciously. There has been so much research into how the heart reacts well before the head. So don’t suppress the fear, use it as a guidance, and because the Traderistic app measures the heart rate, that is actually something it help you with.”
What advice would you give to someone who is experiencing fear while trading? Is there anything you wish you had known when you first started dealing with fear in trading?
“In trading, we need to be aware when we are emotionally and mentally out of sync; because that’s when fear can kick in and self-sabotaging patterns are trying to run the show. There are plenty of talented traders that can’t generate enough profits because they keep going on tilt or paralysed by fear don’t cut their losses.
And a change in heart rate can act as an early warning that we are out of sync according to Steve Ward’s study!
And that’s where the traderistic software can be a game changer for traders!”
Did we miss anything? Use this space for anything you think would be important but hasn't been addressed by the questions above. If there is nothing left to say just leave it blank :) Thank you!
“In my experience, many traders don’t make it because they fight the wrong fight, they fight the pain. They ask how can I stop being so emotional when really they must ask what triggers those emotions?
It’s similar to backpain. No amount of stretching and back massages will help, when the real problem is a slipped disk that needs to be cracked back in alignment with the spine.
For other traders it’s not so much self-sabotaging patterns triggered by fear, but simple good old lack of discipline.
I have been brought up as a free spirit and I am very grateful for that.
But the flipside is that I hadn’t learned discipline. I hated structure and routines, one of the most common traits I observe in already successful traders. So I had to learn to love structure and routines, because I realised that they can take me to my goals faster.
And I have made it a game to constantly push myself to practice and get comfortable with discipline by doing things that are hard for me. Each time I push myself just a little beyond my limits to keep the growth expanding in a sustainable way. And that helps me to trust myself to be in control of my trader mind.”
Some traders are quicker in becoming consistent than others, but I found that most of them come from an environment that shaped their mindset suitable for trading success; they already grew up with discipline and routine, knowing how to quickly recover from the pain of loss and that it is a necessity in order to win (such as competitive sports people).
If you have been struggling with your trading for a while, not sticking to rules, being too emotional (or whatever it is), then you are not aligned. what is needed is a full mindset and skillset scan, going deep, finding the core issue (the driving force behind the self-sabotaging behavior patterns) and work through it.
I strongly belief that maybe not everyone can become a market wizard, but everyone can trade well enough to be a profitable trader. Because I can see that every successful trader had a dark past which means that every losing trader can have a bright future.”
References
Final Word
The conversation with Mandi reinforced an important point…again. Most of us have heard about how our childhood impacts our adulthood and everything we do now. At Traderistic, we have often emphasized that every second of your life resides in your subconscious, and the combination of all these seconds and moments is what defines your identity, what makes you, you.
However, despite this awareness I personally have not done any work on HOW exactly my childhood influences my present behavior, particularly in trading.
Mandi on the other hand, has done her work by getting to the bottom of her experiences as a child, and it makes her a better and happier person nowadays (and surely a more skilled trader). That has opened my eyes to go down that rabbit hole as well.
Maybe you too start a little digging.
Thanks again to Mandi for sharing her insights. She can be found on Twitter @MPX_TRADER and on her website.
Have no fear!
Chris
crk@traderistic.com
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